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FleshFactor: Collated Lines by a Machine?



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A E C  F O R U M - "F L E S H F A C T O R"
(http://www.aec.at/fleshfactor/arch/)
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Regard this a an example of the danger we may be in.
Lines, Liberated from the Forum. 
If you have the stamina, then read the lot and get a distorted (sic) 
overview of "Fleshfactor" - the monster that came from the net can even be
funny. 

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I passionately agree with your comments.
I am an archaeologist, so I am interested in the present.
I agree with moly who says that he thinks of technology as
a dead thing.
The notion of self within a biological soup, is mainly obtained
from undocumented daily activity.
If I take an inventory of all the items on my kitchen counter I
will find that each and every one of them is an extension of some part of my
body or primate nature.
"Five Myths of Television Power," another catchy title particularly
for the Foucault fans.
The challenge for the artist is how to think about this machine.
In my work, I have been asking the question "What is the relationship of
cyberspace to the natural world?"
The illumination works both ways.
The relationship between the human and the machine and the natural
is becoming less difficult to map.
As an artist who has been passionately building 
kinetic machines with emergent behavior for over 
30 years, I am certainly not one to view "Nature" 
in its usual romantic sense.
Ballard metal embedded in flesh fixation, Cyborgs, controlling power
freaks - male denial of the body - I AM a machine.
Intellectually, I can appreciate the notion of escaping the constraints
of biology through our integration with technology, but practically I'm
skeptical.
As a species we have been engaged in relationships with machines for a
long, long time.
Is this cyber-beast high on testosterone?
In our parallel world we have used fiction in an attempt to will new
memes.
Yes, how will the inevitable conflict between the "lossy institutional
historical algorithm" and the collapsing, detailed future as experienced
by the individual, the family, the local community, be resolved?
The Human body is not only "the ultimate original".
Beyond the 'flesh factor' concept, we can perceive a lot of things, such
as genetics, cyber-biology, cyber-intelligence and everything like that.
We are still debating within the fundamental mythical worldview of
humanity, its centredness and uniqueness.
DJ Spooky created a club sound called illbient and he's known for
his intellectual approach to mixing ambient, jungle, hip-hop,
spoken words, noise, cartoons and philosophy.
Always there is nature-nature is abundant and generous-
nature is wild, impetuous, violent, unpredictable.
My finger is damp on the pad and the cursor is thus estranged.
THE WIGGLISM MANIFESTO was generated by, and is also a treatment of, a
"networked subjectivity."
What's going on with this FleshFactor thing?  Is this simply the
body as personal site revisited at the end of the 1990's?  What's
all this talk about humanness in a post-human era?
But this future in "the techno-cultural development is -also- increasingly
obstructed by massive ideological barriers."
Perhaps the FLESHfactor should be a time to ground ourselves...
even our electronics need that.
There are many ways of describing "humanness."
We have reached the post-physical era.
Collapse both distance and space to the flesh.
The end of humanness?  I think not.
This is my body -an anthropomorphized synopsis of my art research
and practice.
My thinking about the body is undergoing a change.
At all events, there is incompatibility between thought and the real.
"I am from Austria."
I thought people/well "humans" may be interested in my current
project.(Typical Jill Scott)
What does it mean to call the human body an ultimate original?
The duchamp thing:  well yeah....
There are those in
the "machine art" movement who advocate the total disappearance of the
human body and its replacement with computer or mechanical robotics...
How, if at all, can we forget the meatbody?
That sounds very promising and valuable. How about a 5th option?
Everything is mediated - experience has always been totally mediated.
The role of mind, body and spirit in interactive art.
On the other hand, maybe we just need more resolution and bandwidth.
At this stage, there is no serious possibility of humans managing without
their bodies.
The hyperstructure of the human body CAN be amplified through technology.
Biology is a technology, a meat technology.
I am a machine -- albeit He is right, yes, that the meatbody is the limit
and the central issue of the discussion.a meat machine, a dynamical complex
meat machine.
Golly, I don't quite see that.
So I wonder whether it is a bit too early in the game to worry too much
about being replaced by manufactured brains.
Meaning is an emergent principle.  Rationality is a synthesis
of perspectives.
These are such classic statements.
As though it ever was.
Puts me in mind of a 'mind reading' program.
Possibly, but then possibly not.
I sometimes feel about my teenage daughter the way Peter feels about
machines.
Precisely my point.
Or again, it's quite impossible to identify the phonemes in a spoken
language.
Ditto.
I like mark weiser's post about skin and boundaries.
The above seemed to me to be the beginning of a fleshfactor manifesto.
I make my first post in this discussion with some trepidation.
First lets quote Max Frisch.
"Quote quote quote"
What can I say, my daughter is two and I'm still into control and dominance!
Everything I touch is skin.
It compares all of the information on all of the cable
TV channels in a 24 hour period. (Great reading)
Today's epigram is from Sigmund Freud: We are the prosthetic gods.
"Avatars" on the net are that manifestation -- of language, and
increasingly in a visual form.
I think we philosophers should help people get over their anxiety
about being machines, since it is no longer possible to deny it, unless
one chooses to be weirdly uninformed.
Again, I really hate to harp on this - but won't someone please tell these
people that industrial American society IS NOT THE ENTIRE WORLD.
While the potential for human cloning makes us uneasy, genetic hybrids of
other species have become the norm.
I have to make my stand and totally disagree with the intellectual,
reductionistic and self-fulfilling idealogy that the we are fundamentally
a machine.
This has got to be a typo.
I'm an artist. I have no specialized knowledge...
The internet is not a technology. The internet is an agreement.
This anonymity lets us explore parts of our personalities that would
otherwise never see the light of day.
Well, Oliver [Hockenhull], that's all well and good to be ranting about
cspace as an american colony, but it just doesn't seem to go far enough.
It's as if the daddy figure in our midst said a no-no and we can now
gleefully jump down his throat for a bad choice of metaphors.
Perhaps the problem is the definition of the word Machine.
Hm.  I don't know who the "we" is that Mark is referring to, but I mislike
being gratuitously included in it.
There are a few weird things about any discussion of the HCI, and one of
them is the use of the words 'the body' in the singular.
A machine operates on the basis of causality.
Exactly!
I find alot of this debate about humans as machines pretty funny.
Generally it would be agreed that machines have been traditionally marked
as articles of use.
Reproductive technologies might inform this discussion.
We (humans) design and build machines - we KNOW how they are made and
constructed and therefore can understand and predict their behaviour. (The
things that make you go Hm!)
So, in this kind of forum, a little pop science is important.
Ah yes, now we are getting to it, the flesh factor.
I am thinking right now about my position in relation to the interwoven
techno-cultures that exist through the monitor/portal in front of me.
Parenthood seems to have become the ultimate in marketing and consumerism.
Over the past month I've tried to be a good moderator.
I think therefore I am. It computes, it whirs, it switches.
Yes, but what does such a belief imply if not this: Everything we
comprehend, we can construct.
Arghh, folks, can we lose the "end of the empire" vibe?
Well, our brain works (roughly!)
Hyperreal sanitised cybersexual encounters have a narcotic effect..totally
addictive
I am glad you took this up. I actually wanted to do it myself, but had no
time
One of the premises of Chaos theory is that simple operations require
complex foundations
I entirely accept the idea that nature is a continuum.
We used to worry about women being equated with nature.
Why don't you throw away that old SoundMachine-game that you never ever
use?
Their apprehension conceptually blends with their
comprehension.
OK, you struck a nerve.
Most thought Kevin was 'up to something'
This artificial brain business has me wondering.
Is the brain fractally structured?
Change my house-fly to a frog and
there you go!
We have a soul because we think we have a soul.
The pictures and the information coming from the robot are
modelling our synapses now.
How can this bio-creation distinguish between human and machine?
We have been termites in a mound
He's wired to a life-sized robot.
Keep your eye upon the donut, And not upon the hole.
To plunge or thrust (a weapon) into flesh
Machines are our slaves
Yes, "machines are just machines"
I don't want my machines to be pet-like.
When you're alone with your machine, you are alone with yourself.
Let's make a creature which is as smart as
our own little white suburban butts.
Maybe the machines we are creating are passively unresponsive for
a reason.
Allow me to be cranky.
Another point on our side-Tom Sherman does not have a degree in
black-box-micro-physics.
ESCAPE FROM THE PLANET OF THE HUMUNCULI
Speculations Concerning the First Ultra-Intelligent Machine.
I like the relationship I have with my computer.
My server is my baby.
Relationships. Those old hoary themes of power and control.
Are we perhaps afraid we'd have to give up some cherished opinions 
if it became fashionable to start backing up beliefs with evidence?
Back in the pre-techno days of industrial dance music.
He could brighten up a room by leaving it.
Hmmm...maybe the next great change will be to replace the audience with
computers. 
You'll be getting it!
Do not aspire to it.
Is declaring yourself God all you have to do around here to get you kids
riled up?
I want everybody to think alike
I guess I would wish to question whether this is all we are, a set
of regularly performed patterns.
The average person will have many alter egos in effect, digital proxies.
Artificial Intelligence will be created accidentally.
Specifically, I will paint a vision of the Next Generation.
I had to wear braces for a year.
My goal is not to simulate myself.
This conversation is happening in a secret end time.
The goal of Artificial Intelligence (AI) is to produce machines with
human-level intelligence.
Our world and everyday lives are so complex that our minds can no longer
keep up.
I think the problem is with the word "lazy."
I am not gaining any intellectual satisfaction from reprogramming make a
comment)
We're talking more than tradeoffs.
body anaesthesia (dead)
A VCR that anticipates your choices?
NAIVE LIBERTARIAN ATTITUDES
Much of the recent FleshFactor
contributors have mistaken their own personal psychology for the human
condition.  (here here!!!!)
Such technological determinism _does_ ignore the human side of the
equation.
There is no difference, the two things are delivering 'fascism'
I agree that scientists have to think about the human dimension of the
technology they develop.
homogenization is a problem in cspace society.
Geez! I don't think we ever claimed to be solving the world's problems
with the technology we're developing!
Scientist are working in the same manner as as artists, sometimes they
don't know where they're going.
I mean, there aren't that many "everyday lives" that have the possibility
of integrating technology.
Dolly's engineers have produced a lamb that has a human gene in every cell
of its body.  Its name is Polly... 
AND why not remain in our ivory towers?
SOCIETY IS THE ULTIMATE COMPUTER
The construction of an agent is always
based on some explicitly imposed human goal.
It's an old truism that almost any invention can be used for good or ill
It is very easy to do something without thinking about anything,
Joseph Beuys, in this context, seems to be more precise when saying that
everybody is a fascist. (Oh yes and everybody kills too no doubt)
I hate purity !!! I hate hierarchy !!! I hate taxonomy!!!! and
classifications !!!
Postmodern identity is an evolutionary step (If I hear some lamer quote
anything including Post modern again I think I will just throw up big
time - get with it - get a life even - post modernism is a silly little
construct that should have been buried the day it was uttered.) 
Maybe I have a romantic conception of the artist.
Virtual communities also tend to go through crisis cycles very quickly
The atomizing nature of the marketplace itself separates people from
responsibility
The nation states no longer have the ability to maneuver successfully
through the current
My own life seems pleasantly chaotic
"But let's not kid ourselves - since Hiroshima and Auschwitz, since
Dresden and Los Angeles, things have not looked pretty for humankind...
(Of course that is not necessarilly true if you happened not to be there.
I do not give a shit about Dresden or Auschwitz for that matter. Do you?)
I find it so, so heartening that finally, on a forum such as this, where the
technofuturists from MIT regularly assail us with their visions of a
software-agent enhanced future, we are allowed to bring back Nature.
The post-structuralist malaise which hangs over us (that was very close to
post modernist :-(
And what are these 'remedial changes' we would have 'nations' impose?
It seems to me that noise, *together with* information, redundancy, form, 
and restraints, is a better generator of new patterns than noise alone.
One of the great "rediscoveries" of this New Entheogenesis is the
dialectical nature of ayahuasca or yage,(yah, right)
You have to find the way to harmonize these differences without
authoritarian forces, violence and power.
It seems to me that noise is the undeciphered substrate
There is much more to the world than our conceits.
Reorganize monetary policy to confront the realities of a globalized money
supply
There is this strange web - sticky with ideas that cling together,
migrating towards certain words that are attractors.
Are we able to transcend this level or not?
One can imagine an immensely powerful computer that pervades that
entire universe.
God is creating in every moment infinite finite universes 
The material world (girl), of which we can say nothing directly that mediates 
our actions.
A computer program that accurately modeled the human brain might be as
inscrutable to us as the brain itself.
As our computers have moved from illustrating life, to actually evolving
life-like processes,
If you take care of the syntax, the meaning will take care of itself
I have the feeling, this is just a very elusive way to express spiritual
desires for immortality and transcendence.
Life isn't as complex as we think it is.
Well, good luck eh?
The whole brain-understanding-itself project is self-referential
I guess I'm in real basic mood this morning
Why do we want to create a machine that is able to think as we do?
Brian's little list isn't so far from something my daughter said to me
recently-that all that people require for a decent life is to be able to
eat, drink, piss and shit, go to sleep with a modicum of comfort and
security when they're tired, run around and do stuff when they're not
sleeping.
One of the most profound goals of chaoplexity is the elucidation of a new
law
If anything has been achieved in FleshFactor, it is a slight evaporation
of that wall.
I have been impressed by the errudite constructions of some serious and
sometimes scary-cool brainpower

Stare reverently into the screen!


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Had a demented time did we?
I enjoyed doing this, I must be other than a machine, 
I have a grin from ear to ear.

Humour - Machine  = Flesh + Wine


Contributed by:   Kasper  <kasper@senet.com.au>

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